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  • The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine
  • Feb. 22, 1868
  • Page 9
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The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine, Feb. 22, 1868: Page 9

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    Article CORRESPONDENCE. ← Page 3 of 4 →
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Correspondence.

would not desire to see any such foolish event happening as Bro . Lyon hints at ; but , on the other hand , if the grounds on which the Lodge Kilwinning attained to her present position are proved to have been false , what real good would that position do her ? It would simply be gilding not solid gold . And if

the Lodge Kilwinning were to leave the Grand Lodge of Scotland after St . John ' s had proved its priority , I am rather afraid it would make a poor figure as a Supreme Masonic Court , as it would find that it had suffered through more light . But the Mother Kilwinning has peculiar claims to

a high position ; and supposing St . John ' s succeeds in proving its priority , I would desire nothing better than to see the Kilwinning and St . John ' s placed side by side , both giving way a little , and grasping each other as brethren . And as both of us have thrown in our lot with the Grand Lodof Scotlandlet us

ge , strive who can advance her interests most . For although historical truth must be brought to lieht , yet we must not allow that to interfere with our duty as brethren .

On considering what I would judge to be the proper position of Melrose St . John , I consider it to he strange that I agree with Bro . Oneal Haye in placing it as No . 3 , that is going on" the idea of age . Although we differ greatly regarding the others , I make out the priority to be Glasgow St . John ' s

( without going further back at present ) say at building of Glasgow Cathedral , of 1123 , No . 1 ¦ St . Mary's Chapel ( if it built Holyrood Abbey ) , in 1128 , No . 2 Melrose St . John , at Melrose Abbey , in 1136 , No . 3 ; Mother Kilwinning cceval with Kilwinning Abbey in 1140 No . 4 Scoone and Perth No 5 unless as I

, , . , said formerly Cannongate Kilwinning can show grounds of priority . Bro . Lyon gives some remarks and questions about our charter , so I will now turn to it a little , more critically than I have hitherto done . The No . 3 after Malcolm ' s name I consider to be

worth nothing , the correctness of the date is a question , at first sight the chief ground on which the Charter can claim existence before 1115 is the name Andrew Hamilton , Bishop of Glasgow , there being no

such bishop after 1115 , but after seeing the contracted Latin so much used in the Royal Charters of the 12 th century , our translator may have made a mistake inadvertently . But let us take the three names of Gilbert of Monteith , Sir Robert of Velen , and Adam of Stenhouse , and try to discover in whose reign these

three contemporary individuals lived . In the Great Charter of Vielso of Malcolm IV ., 1159 , 1 find the names of Earl David my Brother Earl Duncan , and Magistro Andrea . Now I know of no Earl David , my brother , that could be in Malcolm Canmore ' s rei . In the Charter to Burgh of Aof William

gn yr the Lion , I find both Philip and William of Valsines , mentioned . Philip de Valen is also mentioned in our Charter from William the Lion about 1192 . So that it is likely that the Sir Robert of Valen in our old Charter is one of the ancestors of Philip , perhaps his father ( if our Charter dates 1157 )

. As the attempt to decipher our old Charier anew may take some time , I would respectfully and fraternally ask of some of some of our brother historical scholars , to enable ns to find out when the three parties I named above lived ?

I have not yet been able to get the particulars oi the case in the Court of Session where our old Charter was sustained , but the Clerk of the Incorporation has promised to look over the books and give me them in a few days . I may however mention here that while it was taken as a Genuine old Royal Charter , I

understand it was without reference to its exact date . Bro . Lyon also says " Malcolm IV . began to reign thirteen years subsequent to the period at which the Lodge of Kilwinning is believed to have been first constituted . " Very good Bro . Lyon , but on the other hand the brethren of the Lodge of Glasgow St . John ,

were engaged at the building of Glasgow Cathedral in 1123 , seventeen years before the Lodge of Kilwinning is believed to have been first constituted , an d as I said before the age of the Lodge of Glasgow St . John is the age of the old Charter Plus , time immemorial . A careful reading of the Charter will show

that—e . g . How could the Masons of Glasgow have known that lodges had been erected " contrary to the rules of Masonry" unless from the knowledge they already possessed as members of a regular lodge ; again it does not say the Masons of Glasgow shall have a lodge for ever to he called the St . John's Lodge . But it is taken as granted that St . John ' s is the name of the lodge already existing . I have shown our Old Charter -was not the founda ^

tion of St . John ' s Lodge Glasgow , but an evidence of its existence at a particular date . Now supposing this Old Charter were altogether clone away with , let ns look at what St . John ' s could say for itself without it . Well then 1 st , an old cathedral existed at Glasgow before 1123 . 2 ndly , a cathedral was founded there bSt . John ' s Lod ( if not by whom ?) in 1123 .

y ge 3 rd . A cathedral ivas again founded there in 11 S 1 , and a charter of encouragement granted by William the Lion about 1192 , and speaking of this charter , Hamilton , of Wishaw , in his description of the Sheriffdoms of Lanark and Renfrewe , sayspage 162 ' - The following Charter */

sug-, , gests an inquiry whether the building of cathedral churches , monasteries , and other important ecclesiastical buildings may not have given rise to the Societies of Freemasons . "

Fraternitatem quam ad ejus constructionea . venerabilis Jocelinus ejusdem ecclesie episcopus . "f Fourthly . Completion of the choir of cathedral about 1250 , the Bishops of Glasgow also keeping the Masons employed at their own houses . Fifthly . Old Stockwell Bridge built over the Clyde , about 1360 .

Sixthly . Spire of cathedral built , and crypt below the Chapter House , 1420 ; Chapter House ancl Lady ' s Chapel built , about 1440 . Seventh . Glasgow University built , about 1450 . Eighth . Crypt of south transept built and interior of cathedral decorated , & c , about 1500 . Ninth . Archbishop Beaton , who also held the Abbacies of Arbroath and Kilwinning , enclosed his palace

“The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine: 1868-02-22, Page 9” Masonic Periodicals Online, Library and Museum of Freemasonry, 10 July 2025, django:8000/periodicals/mmr/issues/mmr_22021868/page/9/.
  • List
  • Grid
Title Category Page
SKETCHES OF NOTABLE MASONIC WORKS. Article 1
ROYAL ARCH AND SOME OTHER QUESTIONS. Article 2
Untitled Article 3
THE KNIGHTS TEMPLARS. Article 5
MASONIC NOTES AND QUTERIES. Article 7
CORRESPONDENCE. Article 7
M.W. BRO. ROBERT MORRIS AT LIVERPOOL. Article 10
AMERICAN FREEMASONRY. Article 11
ROYAL ARCH AND SOME OTHER QUESTIONS. Article 11
H.R.H. PRINCE SKANDERBEG. Article 12
IMPOSTORS. Article 12
MASONIC MEMS. Article 13
METROPOLITAN. Article 13
PROVINCIAL. Article 14
SCOTLAND. Article 15
TURKEY. Article 16
ROYAL ARCH. Article 16
MARK MASONRY. Article 17
Obituary. Article 17
DEATH OF BRO. ISAAC SMITH. Article 19
Poetry. Article 20
HER MAJESTY'S THEATRE AND BRO. S. MAY. Article 20
MEETINGS OF THE LEARNED SOCIETIES FOR THE WEEK ENDING FEBRUARY 29TH, 1868. Article 20
METROPOLITAN LODGE MEETINGS, ETC., FOR THE WEEK ENDING FEBRUARY 29TH , 1868. Article 20
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Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software.

Correspondence.

would not desire to see any such foolish event happening as Bro . Lyon hints at ; but , on the other hand , if the grounds on which the Lodge Kilwinning attained to her present position are proved to have been false , what real good would that position do her ? It would simply be gilding not solid gold . And if

the Lodge Kilwinning were to leave the Grand Lodge of Scotland after St . John ' s had proved its priority , I am rather afraid it would make a poor figure as a Supreme Masonic Court , as it would find that it had suffered through more light . But the Mother Kilwinning has peculiar claims to

a high position ; and supposing St . John ' s succeeds in proving its priority , I would desire nothing better than to see the Kilwinning and St . John ' s placed side by side , both giving way a little , and grasping each other as brethren . And as both of us have thrown in our lot with the Grand Lodof Scotlandlet us

ge , strive who can advance her interests most . For although historical truth must be brought to lieht , yet we must not allow that to interfere with our duty as brethren .

On considering what I would judge to be the proper position of Melrose St . John , I consider it to he strange that I agree with Bro . Oneal Haye in placing it as No . 3 , that is going on" the idea of age . Although we differ greatly regarding the others , I make out the priority to be Glasgow St . John ' s

( without going further back at present ) say at building of Glasgow Cathedral , of 1123 , No . 1 ¦ St . Mary's Chapel ( if it built Holyrood Abbey ) , in 1128 , No . 2 Melrose St . John , at Melrose Abbey , in 1136 , No . 3 ; Mother Kilwinning cceval with Kilwinning Abbey in 1140 No . 4 Scoone and Perth No 5 unless as I

, , . , said formerly Cannongate Kilwinning can show grounds of priority . Bro . Lyon gives some remarks and questions about our charter , so I will now turn to it a little , more critically than I have hitherto done . The No . 3 after Malcolm ' s name I consider to be

worth nothing , the correctness of the date is a question , at first sight the chief ground on which the Charter can claim existence before 1115 is the name Andrew Hamilton , Bishop of Glasgow , there being no

such bishop after 1115 , but after seeing the contracted Latin so much used in the Royal Charters of the 12 th century , our translator may have made a mistake inadvertently . But let us take the three names of Gilbert of Monteith , Sir Robert of Velen , and Adam of Stenhouse , and try to discover in whose reign these

three contemporary individuals lived . In the Great Charter of Vielso of Malcolm IV ., 1159 , 1 find the names of Earl David my Brother Earl Duncan , and Magistro Andrea . Now I know of no Earl David , my brother , that could be in Malcolm Canmore ' s rei . In the Charter to Burgh of Aof William

gn yr the Lion , I find both Philip and William of Valsines , mentioned . Philip de Valen is also mentioned in our Charter from William the Lion about 1192 . So that it is likely that the Sir Robert of Valen in our old Charter is one of the ancestors of Philip , perhaps his father ( if our Charter dates 1157 )

. As the attempt to decipher our old Charier anew may take some time , I would respectfully and fraternally ask of some of some of our brother historical scholars , to enable ns to find out when the three parties I named above lived ?

I have not yet been able to get the particulars oi the case in the Court of Session where our old Charter was sustained , but the Clerk of the Incorporation has promised to look over the books and give me them in a few days . I may however mention here that while it was taken as a Genuine old Royal Charter , I

understand it was without reference to its exact date . Bro . Lyon also says " Malcolm IV . began to reign thirteen years subsequent to the period at which the Lodge of Kilwinning is believed to have been first constituted . " Very good Bro . Lyon , but on the other hand the brethren of the Lodge of Glasgow St . John ,

were engaged at the building of Glasgow Cathedral in 1123 , seventeen years before the Lodge of Kilwinning is believed to have been first constituted , an d as I said before the age of the Lodge of Glasgow St . John is the age of the old Charter Plus , time immemorial . A careful reading of the Charter will show

that—e . g . How could the Masons of Glasgow have known that lodges had been erected " contrary to the rules of Masonry" unless from the knowledge they already possessed as members of a regular lodge ; again it does not say the Masons of Glasgow shall have a lodge for ever to he called the St . John's Lodge . But it is taken as granted that St . John ' s is the name of the lodge already existing . I have shown our Old Charter -was not the founda ^

tion of St . John ' s Lodge Glasgow , but an evidence of its existence at a particular date . Now supposing this Old Charter were altogether clone away with , let ns look at what St . John ' s could say for itself without it . Well then 1 st , an old cathedral existed at Glasgow before 1123 . 2 ndly , a cathedral was founded there bSt . John ' s Lod ( if not by whom ?) in 1123 .

y ge 3 rd . A cathedral ivas again founded there in 11 S 1 , and a charter of encouragement granted by William the Lion about 1192 , and speaking of this charter , Hamilton , of Wishaw , in his description of the Sheriffdoms of Lanark and Renfrewe , sayspage 162 ' - The following Charter */

sug-, , gests an inquiry whether the building of cathedral churches , monasteries , and other important ecclesiastical buildings may not have given rise to the Societies of Freemasons . "

Fraternitatem quam ad ejus constructionea . venerabilis Jocelinus ejusdem ecclesie episcopus . "f Fourthly . Completion of the choir of cathedral about 1250 , the Bishops of Glasgow also keeping the Masons employed at their own houses . Fifthly . Old Stockwell Bridge built over the Clyde , about 1360 .

Sixthly . Spire of cathedral built , and crypt below the Chapter House , 1420 ; Chapter House ancl Lady ' s Chapel built , about 1440 . Seventh . Glasgow University built , about 1450 . Eighth . Crypt of south transept built and interior of cathedral decorated , & c , about 1500 . Ninth . Archbishop Beaton , who also held the Abbacies of Arbroath and Kilwinning , enclosed his palace

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