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  • Oct. 2, 1869
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The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine, Oct. 2, 1869: Page 12

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    Article MASONIC NOTES AND QUERIES. ← Page 3 of 4 →
Page 12

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Masonic Notes And Queries.

when they began to learn their trade . However , in order to speak to the point , we must wait until we hear exactly what the MS . contains . — W . P . BUCHAN . THE FORMATION OP LODGES . Writing lefore tea , I confess I am unable to understand the appositeness of BroBuchan ' s licated

. comp metaphor of tea and sugar . Perhaps I may comprehend it better after an extra dose of " the cup which cheers but not inebriates . " Meanwhile , I think Bro . B . does not take into account the reasons mentioned in my last note for believing that the formation of 340 lod in half a century from 1717 would be

ges something extraordinary . Let me now add that it is within my own knowledge that , in many lodges up to our own day , tradesmen were practically excluded , so that the circle from which members could be drawn

was very limited . Moreover , there were , previous to the present century , political causes which prevented the spread of such a society as ours- My own grandfather was in his youth called a " Jacobite , " and he well remembered the time when society was divided by the adherents of the Royal Houses of Stuart and

Hanover , who strove to fulfil Scripture , inasmuch as " the Jews had no dealings with the Samaritans . " Nowadays , Freemasonry has a free course , and , with constant inter-communication , the spread of our colonies , the large multiplication of the population , and the increase of Masonic organization , no wonder lodges should be formed with great rapidity .

THE ANTIQUITY OF FKEEMASONKY . I quite agree with Bro . "F . T . W . " that the MS . he quotes from affords strong proof of a recognized difference between operative and speculative Masonry '' towards the end of the 15 th century . " But there is an earlier proof of this fact to be found in the Masonic

Poem first edited by Mr . Haliwell in 1842 , which , written as it was by a monk towards the end of the 14 th century , not only evidences the same admitted difference , but alludes in express terms to the reception of non-operative members into the Order . Abseuce from time and ill health have prevented for

me some time past taking any part in the controversy respecting the antiquity of our Order , but I have never changed my already expressed opinion that the antiquity of our Order is low / anterior to 1717 , and that recent attempts to sever the operative lodges from the revival of 1717 , are most unwise , and entirely opposed to a mass of evidence , direct and indirect , which we are gradually accumulating on the subject . —A MASONIC STUDENT .

MASONIC EAMBLINGS . Bro . "Beitam" appears to have given a very clear and concise statement of the probable origin of speculative Masonry , and it is not enough to answer such arguments with contradiction unsupported by proof . Our traditionsto be rejectedmust not merelbe

, , y denied , they must be proved to be false . It is easy enough to doubt , but , as "Eeitam" says , — "It is an equally foolish thing to believe everything and to believe nothinp-. "—J . A . IT .

MASONIC PEOBLEM . It appears that , after all , Bro . Buchan has yet to seek evidence in support of his " Free Tailor " theory .

Would it not be wiser to secure the evidence before authoritatively writing as if it existed ? For my part , having for years been personally acquainted with the leaders of the Trades Unions in England . I have sought in vain for any traces of there ever having been a " word and grip " among them .- —J . A . H .

J . A . H . The Chips of Foreign Ashlar are oracular and amusing , but they chiefly reveal the personal opinions and personal gastronomic feats of the writer . Permit me to observe that , so far from the rite of Mizraim being abandoned by the Grand Orient of France and

extinct ( p . 240 ) , the Grand Orient has but lately issued a warrant for that rite , and the rite is enrolled in its last Calendrier . So far from a foreign brother being astonished at the Scotch giving three degrees in the same night , there are many foreign brethren whohave received the three degrees in one night . True it

is German brethren do allow of a long interval between degrees . It is no new thing to have lodges tiled during banquet , and it would not be bad if it were more general , for many brethren speak very loosely before waiters , and indulge in signs and exlanations . A greater number of serving brethren

p is very desirable , instead of brethren being left to the attendance of a single Tyler during dessert . As J . A . H . naively says of Scotch degrees , so we say of his Chips , " good , bad , and indifferent . "—SCOTUS .

THE COMPANY OF THE TEOWEL . Your correspondent ( p . 2 to 7 ) has quoted one of the illustrations of Masonry which are worthy of being studied . We want in the Freemason ' s Magazine a fuller account of this society , and of various foreign organizations , social and artistic , some of which had

special emblems or ceremonies . If , however , he is right , as he doubtless is , that the speculative element is owing to the participation of the clergy in the early Masonic guilds and confraternities , then he can hardly be right as to the special influence of the Knights Templars . This is a simple concession to a legend of modern invention . — L . L .

EE VEL ATKINS . One of your correspondents , J . A . H ., has given us revelations of foreign Craft working . He has now been kind enough to give us part of the O . B . in the first degree in Scotland . If this is to onthere is nothing to prevent

go , J . A . H . from publishing the O . B . in our first degree here , whicli he will perhaps do to try the question , also the O . B . of the Mark degree , and the O . B . of the Eose Croix degree . We shall then be able to find out what the jurisdictions think of these things . —A FOEEIGNEE .

OLD FEEEMASONEY . The article by Bro . Hyde Clarke on " Old Freemasonry before Grand Lodge " is deeply interesting , and goes far to strengthen the confidence of those who hesitate to accept 1717 as the natal year of the Craft . The readers of the Magazine will doubtless be glad to hear more about the MS . of Bro . Younghusband . —J . A . H .

“The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine: 1869-10-02, Page 12” Masonic Periodicals Online, Library and Museum of Freemasonry, 2 July 2025, django:8000/periodicals/mmr/issues/mmr_02101869/page/12/.
  • List
  • Grid
Title Category Page
Untitled Article 1
THE ELECTION OF MASTER AND OFFICERS FOR THE ENSUING YEAR. Article 1
NEW MASONIC TOAST — " BRO. THE PRINCE OF WALES." Article 2
THE HAUGHFOOT LODGE AND SPECULATIVE MASONRY. Article 3
MASONIC GOVERNMENT. Article 5
CHIPS OF FOREIGN ASHLAR. Article 6
BIBLES AND OTHER EARLY PRINTED BOOKS.—No. 2. Article 7
BURGH RECORDS. —No. 7. Article 9
MASONIC NOTES AND QUERIES. Article 10
CORRESPONDENCE. Article 13
Untitled Article 14
MASONIC MEMS. Article 14
METROPOLITAN. Article 15
PROVINCIAL. Article 15
SOUTH AFRICA. Article 16
ROYAL ARCH. Article 17
MARK MASONRY. Article 17
LAYING THE FOUNDATION STONE OF DUMFRIES AND GALLOWAY NEW ROYAL INFIRMARY. Article 17
MASONIC FUNERAL IN SPAIN. Article 18
MASONIC FUNERAL AT HARTLEPOOL. Article 19
LITERATURE, SCIENCE, MUSIC, DRAMA, AND THE FINE ARTS. Article 19
MASONIC LIFE BOAT FUND. Article 19
LIST OF LODGE, &c., MEETINGS FOR WEEK ENDING 9TH OCTOBER, 1869. Article 20
TO CORRESPONDENTS. Article 20
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Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software.

Masonic Notes And Queries.

when they began to learn their trade . However , in order to speak to the point , we must wait until we hear exactly what the MS . contains . — W . P . BUCHAN . THE FORMATION OP LODGES . Writing lefore tea , I confess I am unable to understand the appositeness of BroBuchan ' s licated

. comp metaphor of tea and sugar . Perhaps I may comprehend it better after an extra dose of " the cup which cheers but not inebriates . " Meanwhile , I think Bro . B . does not take into account the reasons mentioned in my last note for believing that the formation of 340 lod in half a century from 1717 would be

ges something extraordinary . Let me now add that it is within my own knowledge that , in many lodges up to our own day , tradesmen were practically excluded , so that the circle from which members could be drawn

was very limited . Moreover , there were , previous to the present century , political causes which prevented the spread of such a society as ours- My own grandfather was in his youth called a " Jacobite , " and he well remembered the time when society was divided by the adherents of the Royal Houses of Stuart and

Hanover , who strove to fulfil Scripture , inasmuch as " the Jews had no dealings with the Samaritans . " Nowadays , Freemasonry has a free course , and , with constant inter-communication , the spread of our colonies , the large multiplication of the population , and the increase of Masonic organization , no wonder lodges should be formed with great rapidity .

THE ANTIQUITY OF FKEEMASONKY . I quite agree with Bro . "F . T . W . " that the MS . he quotes from affords strong proof of a recognized difference between operative and speculative Masonry '' towards the end of the 15 th century . " But there is an earlier proof of this fact to be found in the Masonic

Poem first edited by Mr . Haliwell in 1842 , which , written as it was by a monk towards the end of the 14 th century , not only evidences the same admitted difference , but alludes in express terms to the reception of non-operative members into the Order . Abseuce from time and ill health have prevented for

me some time past taking any part in the controversy respecting the antiquity of our Order , but I have never changed my already expressed opinion that the antiquity of our Order is low / anterior to 1717 , and that recent attempts to sever the operative lodges from the revival of 1717 , are most unwise , and entirely opposed to a mass of evidence , direct and indirect , which we are gradually accumulating on the subject . —A MASONIC STUDENT .

MASONIC EAMBLINGS . Bro . "Beitam" appears to have given a very clear and concise statement of the probable origin of speculative Masonry , and it is not enough to answer such arguments with contradiction unsupported by proof . Our traditionsto be rejectedmust not merelbe

, , y denied , they must be proved to be false . It is easy enough to doubt , but , as "Eeitam" says , — "It is an equally foolish thing to believe everything and to believe nothinp-. "—J . A . IT .

MASONIC PEOBLEM . It appears that , after all , Bro . Buchan has yet to seek evidence in support of his " Free Tailor " theory .

Would it not be wiser to secure the evidence before authoritatively writing as if it existed ? For my part , having for years been personally acquainted with the leaders of the Trades Unions in England . I have sought in vain for any traces of there ever having been a " word and grip " among them .- —J . A . H .

J . A . H . The Chips of Foreign Ashlar are oracular and amusing , but they chiefly reveal the personal opinions and personal gastronomic feats of the writer . Permit me to observe that , so far from the rite of Mizraim being abandoned by the Grand Orient of France and

extinct ( p . 240 ) , the Grand Orient has but lately issued a warrant for that rite , and the rite is enrolled in its last Calendrier . So far from a foreign brother being astonished at the Scotch giving three degrees in the same night , there are many foreign brethren whohave received the three degrees in one night . True it

is German brethren do allow of a long interval between degrees . It is no new thing to have lodges tiled during banquet , and it would not be bad if it were more general , for many brethren speak very loosely before waiters , and indulge in signs and exlanations . A greater number of serving brethren

p is very desirable , instead of brethren being left to the attendance of a single Tyler during dessert . As J . A . H . naively says of Scotch degrees , so we say of his Chips , " good , bad , and indifferent . "—SCOTUS .

THE COMPANY OF THE TEOWEL . Your correspondent ( p . 2 to 7 ) has quoted one of the illustrations of Masonry which are worthy of being studied . We want in the Freemason ' s Magazine a fuller account of this society , and of various foreign organizations , social and artistic , some of which had

special emblems or ceremonies . If , however , he is right , as he doubtless is , that the speculative element is owing to the participation of the clergy in the early Masonic guilds and confraternities , then he can hardly be right as to the special influence of the Knights Templars . This is a simple concession to a legend of modern invention . — L . L .

EE VEL ATKINS . One of your correspondents , J . A . H ., has given us revelations of foreign Craft working . He has now been kind enough to give us part of the O . B . in the first degree in Scotland . If this is to onthere is nothing to prevent

go , J . A . H . from publishing the O . B . in our first degree here , whicli he will perhaps do to try the question , also the O . B . of the Mark degree , and the O . B . of the Eose Croix degree . We shall then be able to find out what the jurisdictions think of these things . —A FOEEIGNEE .

OLD FEEEMASONEY . The article by Bro . Hyde Clarke on " Old Freemasonry before Grand Lodge " is deeply interesting , and goes far to strengthen the confidence of those who hesitate to accept 1717 as the natal year of the Craft . The readers of the Magazine will doubtless be glad to hear more about the MS . of Bro . Younghusband . —J . A . H .

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