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  • Jan. 2, 1869
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The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine, Jan. 2, 1869: Page 18

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    Article MASONIC NOTES AND QUERIES. ← Page 2 of 2
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Masonic Notes And Queries.

the Magazine . This document may be called a confirmatory charter , because it confirms , or establishes by Royal authority , what the Bishop had done" carta "Willielmi regis qua ) confirmat fraternitatem constitutam ad constructionem ecelesie C-lasguensis . " I see nothing surprising in a charter being granted in 1190 for the protection of a building fraternity ; because , as Professor Cosmo Innes truly observes , — "This was the era of those enthusiastic fraternities or

associations for church building which assisted in erecting most of the beautiful churches of Europe , " and I consider the charter itself shows that . Bro . Haye makes several mistakes in his remarks at page 470 . Kg ., he says— " Bro . Buchan would have us to believe that not only did the builders rear the Cathedralbut threared it at their own cost

, ey , "b y money obtained by begging . " What I say is , that a building fraternity consisted not only of pure operatives , but also of " collectors , " who had power , or rather liberty to beg ( if you like that term ) throughout the diocese for money and provisions to help to pay and feed the operatives engaged on the

building . Over aud above this , the Bishop had to provide stones , wood , and other material , and also money , in order to raise which he had his own agents , and ways aud means , also the " safe conduct . " Bro . Haye is also mistaken in supposing that because the Cathedral was burnedthe " monks " had

, " no longer a roof to shelter them ;' ' for while " in conventual churches the officials resided iu buildings within the walls of tho monastery iu cathedrals , the dignitaries' and prebends' houses were generally separated from it . "

Another gratuitous asnumptiou is to say that " it is impossible to put such a construction upon it" as that the "fraternity is composed of builders . " I affirm it to be quite possible . Again , Bro . Haye says— " William the Lion , in 1190 , converted Glasgow into a burgh . " The truth

is William the Lion / between 1175 and 1178 granted a charter constituting Glasgow a Bishop ' s Burgh , not a Eoyal Burgh , which did not happen until the ' 17 th century ) . There are other remarks , which I hope to be better able to go into next month . In the meantimeas a

, " Masonic Student" is taking an interest in the matter , we shall be glad to hear him anenfc it , aud if he coincides with Bro . llaye in considering the translation a fair one .

1 am glad to find that Bro . Haye seems to be ready to acknowled ge the absurdity of the Mother Kilwinning 1140 Legend , of which we may yet hear more . Before closing , I perceive that Bro . Haye characterizes the William the Lion Charter as " a serious document

, " ancl also as " being genuine . '' So far so good . —W , P . BUCHAN . SCOTS AND SCOTCH SYNONYMOUS . Bro . Anthony Oneal Haye has joined issue with W . P . B . in his futileand to our mind somewhat

, pedantic , attempt to suppress the words Scotch and Scotchmen . Bro . Haye ' s note on the subject is certainly not such as one would have expected from the pen of so distinguished a scholar . He tells us that "Scotch , " " although sanctioned by the names of Burns and Scott , was condemned by Hume , Henry

Mackenzie , Henry Erskine , and the writers in the ' Scots Magazine . '" Bro . Haye ought to have shown what manner of condemnation " Scotch '' had received at the hands of the three eminent writers he has named . TTntil it is shown to be otherwise , we shall take for granted that the " condemnation " referred to was of a purely negative character . Their

preference for "Scots" cannot surely be held as condemnatory of "Scotch . " Bro . Haye ' s citation of " the writers in the Scots Magazine , ' in support of his view of the question , is rather unfortunate for himself . We do not know in what estimation as a writer Junius is held by Bro .

Haye ; but his " Letters " we have always understood to rank amongst the most admired in British literature . Well , Junius was a writer in the " Scots Magazine , " and so far from condemning the word " Scotch , " he uses it both as an adjective ancl a noun . ( See " Junius to a great personage , " pp . G 3 G-7 " Scots

Magazine , " 1769 . ) In other contributions to the same volume , mention is made of " Scotch boroughs " aud " Scotchmen . " Bro . Haye will , we think , be the last to assert that in his writings the late Rev . Andrew Bonar displayed vulgarism either in sty le or matter . And yet in the

most interesting of his contributions to the " Scottish Freemasons' Magazine "— " The Masonic Poets of Scotland" —that ripe scholar and true poet almost invariably uses " Scotch ' ' and " Scotchmen , ' ' in preference to " Scots " and " Scotsmen . " ( See Scot . Freemasons' Mag . vol . iv . pp . 6-11 and 23-27 . )

, , It is true that one of the Edinburgh newspapers of the present day is named " The Scotsman ; " but if Bro , Haye refers to " jS ' otes and Queries , 1853 , " he will find that the earliest Scottish gazette was entitled , " The Edinburgh Gazette , or Scotch Postman , " aud that another of the now defunct Edinburgh papers

was called " The Scotch Mercury . ' ' We now take leave of the subject . We have shown that the words objected to by Bros . W . P . B . and A . Oneal Haye have the sanction of usage by writers of the first eminence ; aud there is little reason to expect that words that have become so incorporated with the language will be discarded on the mere unsupported dictum of individuals . —D . MURRAY ETON .

SPAIN . Tour review of the year contains a seasonable hint as to Masonry in Spain . It is to be hoped , under the present more tolerant aspect of affairs , that English brethren having a connexion with Spain or visiting its cities will endeavour to promote Spanish Masonry —READER .

GEORGIA . Can any of your readers connected with the East inform me whether Masonry has been introduced among the Georgians ; I know it has among the Armenians and Greeks . I assume there is no lodge at Tylis , as it is under Russian rule , but there are many Georgians living in Constantinople , under milder and more tolerant rule , and where there are many lodges . —READER .

PAST MASTER ' S PIKE . Among foreign Masons a toast is responded to by a lire . In some lodges iu England the Past Masters do the same with what they call the Past Master ' s fire , TRAVELLER .

“The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine: 1869-01-02, Page 18” Masonic Periodicals Online, Library and Museum of Freemasonry, 16 July 2025, django:8000/periodicals/mmr/issues/mmr_02011869/page/18/.
  • List
  • Grid
Title Category Page
Untitled Article 1
Untitled Article 2
ADDRESS TO OUR READERS. Article 3
INDEX. Article 5
MASONIC PERSECUTION.—I. Article 9
GRAND LODGE OF IOWA.—I. Article 10
MASONIC DISCIPLINE.—V. Article 11
THE KNIGHTS TEMPLARS. Article 13
CHAPTER XII. Article 14
CHIPS OF FOREIGN ASHLER. Article 16
MASONIC NOTES AND QUERIES. Article 17
CORRESPONDENCE. Article 19
ANTIQUITY OF CHRISTMAS GAMES. Article 20
MASONIC MEMS. Article 21
METROPOLITAN. Article 21
PROVINCIAL. Article 22
SCOTLAND. Article 24
CHANNEL ISLANDS. Article 25
MARK MASONRY. Article 25
KNIGHTS TEMPLAR. Article 25
RED CROSS OF ROME AND CONSTANTINE. Article 25
MASONIC LIFEBOAT FUND. Article 25
MASONIC FESTIVITIES. Article 26
REVIEWS. Article 27
FUNERAL OF THE LATE BRO. JAMES CHALMERS WITH MASONIC HONOURS. Article 27
Obituary. Article 28
METROPOLITAN LODGE MEETINGS, ETC., FOR THE WEEK ENDING JANUARY 9TH, 1869. Article 28
TO CORRESPONDENTS. Article 28
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Masonic Notes And Queries.

the Magazine . This document may be called a confirmatory charter , because it confirms , or establishes by Royal authority , what the Bishop had done" carta "Willielmi regis qua ) confirmat fraternitatem constitutam ad constructionem ecelesie C-lasguensis . " I see nothing surprising in a charter being granted in 1190 for the protection of a building fraternity ; because , as Professor Cosmo Innes truly observes , — "This was the era of those enthusiastic fraternities or

associations for church building which assisted in erecting most of the beautiful churches of Europe , " and I consider the charter itself shows that . Bro . Haye makes several mistakes in his remarks at page 470 . Kg ., he says— " Bro . Buchan would have us to believe that not only did the builders rear the Cathedralbut threared it at their own cost

, ey , "b y money obtained by begging . " What I say is , that a building fraternity consisted not only of pure operatives , but also of " collectors , " who had power , or rather liberty to beg ( if you like that term ) throughout the diocese for money and provisions to help to pay and feed the operatives engaged on the

building . Over aud above this , the Bishop had to provide stones , wood , and other material , and also money , in order to raise which he had his own agents , and ways aud means , also the " safe conduct . " Bro . Haye is also mistaken in supposing that because the Cathedral was burnedthe " monks " had

, " no longer a roof to shelter them ;' ' for while " in conventual churches the officials resided iu buildings within the walls of tho monastery iu cathedrals , the dignitaries' and prebends' houses were generally separated from it . "

Another gratuitous asnumptiou is to say that " it is impossible to put such a construction upon it" as that the "fraternity is composed of builders . " I affirm it to be quite possible . Again , Bro . Haye says— " William the Lion , in 1190 , converted Glasgow into a burgh . " The truth

is William the Lion / between 1175 and 1178 granted a charter constituting Glasgow a Bishop ' s Burgh , not a Eoyal Burgh , which did not happen until the ' 17 th century ) . There are other remarks , which I hope to be better able to go into next month . In the meantimeas a

, " Masonic Student" is taking an interest in the matter , we shall be glad to hear him anenfc it , aud if he coincides with Bro . llaye in considering the translation a fair one .

1 am glad to find that Bro . Haye seems to be ready to acknowled ge the absurdity of the Mother Kilwinning 1140 Legend , of which we may yet hear more . Before closing , I perceive that Bro . Haye characterizes the William the Lion Charter as " a serious document

, " ancl also as " being genuine . '' So far so good . —W , P . BUCHAN . SCOTS AND SCOTCH SYNONYMOUS . Bro . Anthony Oneal Haye has joined issue with W . P . B . in his futileand to our mind somewhat

, pedantic , attempt to suppress the words Scotch and Scotchmen . Bro . Haye ' s note on the subject is certainly not such as one would have expected from the pen of so distinguished a scholar . He tells us that "Scotch , " " although sanctioned by the names of Burns and Scott , was condemned by Hume , Henry

Mackenzie , Henry Erskine , and the writers in the ' Scots Magazine . '" Bro . Haye ought to have shown what manner of condemnation " Scotch '' had received at the hands of the three eminent writers he has named . TTntil it is shown to be otherwise , we shall take for granted that the " condemnation " referred to was of a purely negative character . Their

preference for "Scots" cannot surely be held as condemnatory of "Scotch . " Bro . Haye ' s citation of " the writers in the Scots Magazine , ' in support of his view of the question , is rather unfortunate for himself . We do not know in what estimation as a writer Junius is held by Bro .

Haye ; but his " Letters " we have always understood to rank amongst the most admired in British literature . Well , Junius was a writer in the " Scots Magazine , " and so far from condemning the word " Scotch , " he uses it both as an adjective ancl a noun . ( See " Junius to a great personage , " pp . G 3 G-7 " Scots

Magazine , " 1769 . ) In other contributions to the same volume , mention is made of " Scotch boroughs " aud " Scotchmen . " Bro . Haye will , we think , be the last to assert that in his writings the late Rev . Andrew Bonar displayed vulgarism either in sty le or matter . And yet in the

most interesting of his contributions to the " Scottish Freemasons' Magazine "— " The Masonic Poets of Scotland" —that ripe scholar and true poet almost invariably uses " Scotch ' ' and " Scotchmen , ' ' in preference to " Scots " and " Scotsmen . " ( See Scot . Freemasons' Mag . vol . iv . pp . 6-11 and 23-27 . )

, , It is true that one of the Edinburgh newspapers of the present day is named " The Scotsman ; " but if Bro , Haye refers to " jS ' otes and Queries , 1853 , " he will find that the earliest Scottish gazette was entitled , " The Edinburgh Gazette , or Scotch Postman , " aud that another of the now defunct Edinburgh papers

was called " The Scotch Mercury . ' ' We now take leave of the subject . We have shown that the words objected to by Bros . W . P . B . and A . Oneal Haye have the sanction of usage by writers of the first eminence ; aud there is little reason to expect that words that have become so incorporated with the language will be discarded on the mere unsupported dictum of individuals . —D . MURRAY ETON .

SPAIN . Tour review of the year contains a seasonable hint as to Masonry in Spain . It is to be hoped , under the present more tolerant aspect of affairs , that English brethren having a connexion with Spain or visiting its cities will endeavour to promote Spanish Masonry —READER .

GEORGIA . Can any of your readers connected with the East inform me whether Masonry has been introduced among the Georgians ; I know it has among the Armenians and Greeks . I assume there is no lodge at Tylis , as it is under Russian rule , but there are many Georgians living in Constantinople , under milder and more tolerant rule , and where there are many lodges . —READER .

PAST MASTER ' S PIKE . Among foreign Masons a toast is responded to by a lire . In some lodges iu England the Past Masters do the same with what they call the Past Master ' s fire , TRAVELLER .

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